[tmtranscripts] SE Idaho 9-7-3 Daniel
kpander at mindspring.com
Thu Sep 18 19:41:20 PDT 2003
SE Idaho TeaM
September 7 2003
Editor: This is Bill Kellys last transmitting before he graduated. We of the SE Idaho TM group are stunned and grieving with the loss of the companionship and leadership of our friend, brother and founding member of the group. We ask your prayers for Bills wife Virginia, mother ---, children Nancy and Greg, and the rest of his family.
Prayer by Bill: Father of mercies, God of all comfort: we worship you; we praise you, we desire to be like you. So increase our faith as a result of our following through on our relationship with you. Fill us with the energy of love that it may overflow from us, rather than be pulled from the depths of our being. May this meeting tonight mutually benefit everyone, teachers, students, for we are always both, and now we await the truth, which will speak to each heart. In the name of Michael we ask these things. Amen.
Daniel (Bill): This is Daniel, your teacher, your guide, your friend, and your stalwart companion. Once again it is of the greatest joy for me to be in your presence, and to share this time with you. We are always encouraged by the enthusiasm, which brings you repeatedly to this classroom setting. As you have heard we are going to continue in the seminar format at least for awhile until it becomes necessary to present new material. In that case we may resort to a lecture format, and then again go into a discussion format, a seminar format in order to digest the next level of instruction. But for now we are working on the many things, which have been taught to you over many years. Therefore, we have great flexibility in terms of what we will discuss. Understand that the content of discussion will be a joint effort, on your part as well as on our part. In other words, my friends, this is not simply a subterfuge whereby we continue to control all the content, but it is truly an opportunity for open discussion. So, before we begin tonight I want to allow you to present any questions you may have about our format. Are there things about this that are not clear, or do you have suggestions that you wish to make?
Bob D: Just for my understanding you are wanting a process whereby the teachers are facilitating our discussion and answering our questions, and presenting concepts related to those discussions. Is that about what you are saying?
Daniel (Bill): That would be the aspect of your input, yes, Bob, and great deal of what we will have the opportunity to discuss. Occasionally, however, we have an agenda too which we will interact with as well as is appropriate.
Nancy: I dont quite understand how this works. If you want TRs receptive, how is that we can have a discussion unless one of the TRs is bringing forth the facilitation?
Daniel (Bill): Well, I suggested other TRs be receptive because I alone will not be the only representative of the teachers side of the ledger. Other teachers, Minearsia, Aaron, and some of your personal teachers will at times be interacting, and when they do that we think it would be more holistic if more than one mind on your part is involved. You might present, for example, an issue for discussion, and you may discuss it among yourselves even as you have done the past few minutes, and then a teacher may wish to speak and one of you, including Isaac, may get the connection and then transmit that teacher. Do you understand that?
Nancy: Im way out of practice for this kind of discussion. [Laughter.] OK, I got it.
Daniel: And of course any TR is always available only upon their own volunteering, so if you feel out of practice or you just dont want to TR, which occasionally happens as you know, that is your choice, but more than one TR could theoretically and hopefully will be involved in this. So, other questions or comments?
Bob D: I want to comment because it when I was in Spokane there were some experimental sessions we did as a group where we would all be receptive to the teachers, and then have a discussion in which the teachers would come in and out to offer their input, and sometimes offer a lesson. Is that what you are working towards, to have some kind of discussion group in which you are coming in with lessons or discussion, an interspersed procedure that than a more formal one.
Daniel: Yes. In the history of this group there was a time when it was training TRs, and everyone sat in receptivity and various personalities would come through various people with different lessons and so forth. What we are trying to do here is difficult for the TRs are not to sit with their eyes shut and the mouths closed, but to take part in the discussion, so, for us to get our two cents in, its going to mean that youre going to have to be receptive to the knock on the cranium even as you sit there with your eyes open. Now open-eyed TRing has been practiced in other places, but it hasnt been a forte of this group.
Nancy: That is why I said I was out of practice for this level of difficulty. [Laughter.] I understand.
Daniel: Nancy, thats correct, as you understand it, so Isaac is now going to open his eyes and disconnect from me, and we are going to begin the seminar and let you start the first topic, maybe the only topic as it may turn out. It is your turn.
Bob D: I have a question about what Isaac brought up earlier which is a question about judgment, and really understanding judgment. What every teacher is available I would like more discussion on what is the difference between judgment and discerning. We have had several lessons of this involving such things as presupposing, labeling, and expectations. If there is anything the teachers could add I would sure like to hear that.
Nancy: Before we get to that, teachers, since I wasnt in the room at the time Id like to respond separate from the teachers, before we go to the teachers. I understand judgment to be ego-involved, and, its the ego thats making judgments and usually comparisons, because the ego is very concerned about how it compares to others and to itself, whereas discernment seems to come from a different place, and theres no sense of goodness/badness, comparison. Its just sort of noting the reality of something in order to take corrective [appropriate?] responses. And so I understand discernment and judgment to differ by what part of our nature is responding to the situation.
Virginia: Several years ago when we were in the car talking about these very two words, Bill brought up a very important point that in that judgment is usually demonstrated with a lot of emotion, usually anger, or resentment, or this sort of thing, where discernment is where you might see a problem that needs to be corrected or a situation that is not healthy, but you dont have any emotion as youre looking at that. I think this is the difference between ego and non-ego involvement.
Nancy: I see discernment as quiet and judgment as loud.
Virginia: Yes, lots of emotion, anger, etc.
Bill: When I experience what I think as judgment theres, like you said, Nancy, the comparison. My ego is saying that, in whatever area of discernment is, Im better that the other person. Theres a superiority feeling there, and its kind of a despising effect, if thats the right word, regarding the thing youre making the judgment about.
Ken: Youre saying that discernment then that you feel youre better than the other person.
Bill: No, thats judgment, not discernment.
Ken: OK, I understood you.
Bill: No, in discernment its exactly what these two have said, in my experience. You simply observe in discernment. Well, Bob, is that anything new?
Bob D: Ive thrown around several thoughts. One is that, for myself, I know I get critical. Its not necessarily when I judge that person and dont like them any more, or feel that Im better than them. Maybe theres a subtle bit of that, that I dont consciously think about, but it seems to be based upon my own experiences, based upon how I am, (I dont know how to explain it) but it seems a lot more subtle, and I wonder to what degree, to understand and manage that. Maybe Im looking for useful tools to move out of the critical eye, and into the supportive and yet wise, you know, like to be wise as the serpent, and supportive as the dove. Thats what I was getting at.
Daniel (Bill): I am Daniel. All that you have discussed, in terms of ego, the emotional component of critical comparisons, and so forth, is of course very accurate.
Judgment is also arrogant for it assumes that competence to make assessments about another person, when in fact, there is no such competence. You do not have any real knowledge about the experiences of another human being, even those who are most intimately associated with them. You may know many of the events that occurred when you were together, but you truly do not know the experience of the other person in as much as those events are filtered through their unique personality, belief system and value system. Imagine then how much further apart you are from an individual whom you know nothing about besides their physical appearance and a few other minor statistics. So it is the flavor of arrogance that is subtly disguised in your minds so that you think when you are passing judgment on another person that you are competent to make such a decision. Puzzling isnt it? You are most incompetent, and yet you make the judgment that you are competent. I thought this addition to discussion would be helpful.
What I suggest you do when you feel judgmental is to remember this very incompetence. Stop yourself in your own tracks, as it were, and say, Wait a minute. I have no ability to make a judgment about this other person. Now, because you dont have the ability, you dont have the obligation. It is not your business to make judgments about other people.
Now perhaps you may say, What about myself? I know myself pretty well. But my friends, that of course is erroneous, for if it were true no one would need to be spending years on the couch of some psychoanalyst, or go through the painful attempts to understand yourself that we teachers have been promoting. So, therefore, youre not competent to judge yourself either. Earlier it was discussed that perhaps your tendency to be judgmental was a cultural artifact, that it was largely due to the influence your institutions that have to do with right and wrong, which include of course your church background whatever that my be, but also your parental training primarily, and because you are all products of your culture you have these habits which are associated with your value system. In other words I am saying your have been taught it is necessary to be judgmental, whereas Jesus said Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. You see, he was referring to the wisdom of discernment, which is without the sting of judgment. So you can be peaceful in your discernment as has already been indicated. Well, my friends, those are my words.
Marty: Daniel, would it be more, instead of a judgment, would it be more of a discernment when I see somebody else do something right I feel thats something I want to do, and when I see someone do something wrong I say Thats something I dont want to do. Ive always been after myself feeling thats judgmental, but at the same time I sometimes feel its a learning tool.
Daniel: Yes, discernment is for the purpose of learning, and if you dont have that feeling of superiority and that comparison mind-set, you simply observe something that doesnt work well, and you think I dont want to do it that way, or your observe something that does work well, and you say, Ill try that, that is not being judgmental. And therefore, Marty, you can let yourself off the hook on that. [Laughter.]
Marty: So thats considered discernment then.
Daniel: Certainly, it doesnt have the arrogance, the emotional flavor; it doesnt have the sting, you see.
Marty: And I wondered, with Nancys comment about the ego, since there is some ego involved when I decide whether Im going to do it, or not going to do it, does that push it toward the judgmental or not? Thank you.
Daniel: Critical is a good word. You know when it feels like to be self-critical. Its a very unpleasant feeling, and when you direct that feeling toward other people, then you are being judgmental.
Marty: Thank you.
Bob D: It struck me while you were talking that judgment is an attempt to be in control, and that being able to perceive others and think you know everything about everything including yourself that is an element of control. It is like the fear of being out of control, and not knowing.
Daniel: Well, in a spot, because the ego is out of its bounds when it seeks to control. Our Father did not create human nature in such a way that the ego should have the final direction for the personality. The final direction for the personality is always a matter of allowing your Indwelling Spirit to both provide guidance and support. In unbelieving minds, who are unaware and unwilling to listen to their Thought Adjusters, the ego function then expands to usurp the place which the Inner Pilot would usually occupy. You must understand that the ego is not a defect in the make-up of humanity. It is a part of the cognitive or mindal system. It is your servant, but it should not be your master. Did that reflect your thoughts?
Bob D: I guess the follow-up then is what steps can we take when we see ourselves beginning to do this? I can see a few instances where, out of my own fear or lack of control, I will become critical of another person to the point where, and they with me, personalities are playing off each other, and you fearful of even communicating with that person, because youre at the place where there is an allegation and youd rather not deal with that person and forget they are part of the human family. [Laughter.] I can think of perhaps three or four persons out there, not to that degree, but where I have this fear of exposure, and I dont know how to move past that fear. So thats the follow-up. Once we recognize it, how to we deal with it? Certainly through stillness and prayer, but are there other techniques we can utilize to really work through these feeling?
Daniel: Well, one thing you can do is to do an analysis. Ask yourself Are these feelings towards this person more judgmental or are they a discernment-type of feeling that doesnt have the negative feeling to it? If they are the judgmental type, then deal with that. However, let me say this. This is not a perfected universe. Even beyond the mortal level, my friend, we have our disagreements. We have our problems. We have conciliatory commissions to deal with them. So do what you can, and sweep up the dirt on your side of the street, but you cant sweep the dirt on the other side. I know that isnt a very concrete answer to your question. Some things just have to be set aside for later. You cant force everything to be just the way you want it in relationships.
Virginia: Daniel, I think of Jesus, in this point that Bob has brought up. I have certainly been there and understand very much. Maybe the fear element is there, but Jesus, when he tried to be treated fairly by Herod, and was not treated fairly , he would not exposed himself to working for that man, as a young man before he started doing his Fathers business. That to me was a comfort, because sometimes you have done what you can to try to make peace with someone, and it doesnt happen. Thats why I appreciate very much Jesus example, not that we can follow him at all, but it was a comfort. I also liked to fact that you can say, sweep up the dirt on your side of the street, and pray for these people. I truly think love is the desire to do good to others. I wish these people no ill. I wish them good, because that would that would be good for me, if theres growth, and love for them too.
Daniel: Thank you for bringing up that very important quote that love is the desire to do good to others. Notice it doesnt say love is doing good to others only, but it is the desire to do good. And as you have pointed out, some things you cant good to others because they dont want to relate to you.
Nancy: In fact isnt that the doing goodto respect the other persons free will choice, stand back, allow time and know that in the fullness of time there will be that opportunity. Its immaturity and arrogance to try to push things now, to be on our time schedule.
Daniel: Absolutely. I couldnt have said it better myself. Thank you, Nancy.
Well, Im going to let Isaac resort to his role here, but maybe I should ask you, Bob, do you want any more comments from me?
Bob D: Well, Ill ponder it more. Youve said a lot tonight so theres a lot of input, about myself, and how I can remove this critical tendency. It seems to be much of the alienation that I feel is probably just my fear of exposing, so in a sense I can relate to them in a different way. They there have the opportunity to choose whether to relate differently or not. Like you said, it is how to release those patterns in myself.
Daniel: Perhaps Nancy advice here would applynot assume that you have to fix the relationship. Allow them their free will. And yes, you people are all driven by such time constraints, because your culture doesnt really believe in eternal life, and everybodys thinks they got to get it all done in this life. But the Fathers time is much longer, much longer.
Nancy: That has been the greatest gift that I have received. I dont knowperhaps they all are, but with the knowledge that has come from the Urantia Book and the Teaching Mission I think I must really believe that we continue on afterwards, because I do experience great peace as I contemplate situations that I know that I cant fix now, that I feel frustration over because communication is miles off and I know that there is now way to make myself understood. To know that someday I will be understood [laughter] and to know that someday I will have much better understanding, that is my safety valve when I start to be frustrated by aspects of relationships that are out of my current control.
Daniel: Very true. If you was a normal planet your culture would not be teaching these errors. You people are indeed both not to be pitied, no, handicapped and yet fortunate, because, as we have told you many times, you have such rich opportunity to make positive decisions which promote soul growth, and therefore, your Luciferian legacy has both positive and negative aspects. I am glad that the truth sets us free, remember? what ever that truth is sets us free: free from error; free from fear, and helps us relax and remember how loving, in fact, this universe truly is, full of loving beings all created, directly or indirectly, by the First, Second and through the Third Source and Centers, the very center of all things. Someday your scientists will realize that the universe did not explode from a meaningless big bang, but that it is under the direction of intelligence and purpose, but those days are still ahead of us. Well, Isaac shall not return to his normal state of consciousness.
Ken: I would like to take this discussion of judgment on a different tact. We had talked on the negative aspects of judgment. There is a positive aspect on this. When you see somebody do something (negative) you can make a positive judgment on that persons action. There is truth, beauty and goodness involved in that. Therefore, would that be discernment or is that a judgment that they hada positive aspect that you can apply to yourself? Do you follow what Im saying?
Bob D: When someone is doing something negative, you can make something good.
Ken: We have already had the discussion on that, the negativity in judgment, but judgment is a two-sided coin.
Bill: I think thats what you were saying (to Bob D).
Marty: I got the impression that when it is positive that it was discernment.
Ken: Yes, but when you have that judgment it can feed back as a positive aspect on you.
Bill: Well, Ken, youre using the word judgment as discernment, I believe.
Virginia: What he is saying is that you can look at someone and judge a positive behavior that gives you emotion. I can see this thing. You can see someone do something really beautiful, and you going Wow, look at that! Theres emotion there. Its not an even kind of observance.
Bill: I would say its charged with emotion.
Virginia: Yes, but its a good judgment, Wow, look what they did!
Bill: Thats not an ego thing.
Virginia: Theres just a lot of emotion, and we defined judgment as
Bill: Negative emotion.
Virginia: Well, theres emotion. [Comments.] I can see something that really great. Bobs trying to say something.
Bob D: I get this idea from the teachers. [Comments and laughter.] Judgment on the level of behavior is not that. It is more of discernment. Judgment on the level of personality is a negative, whether its a positive or a negative judgment, because if you judge a personality based upon one positive behavior you see, or one positive thing, then its a negative application, for you suddenly believe this person is wonderful when in reality they may have ups and downs the same as everybody else does. Whereas, if you are just looking at behavior youre making a discernment. Youre saying this behavior I like. This behavior I dont like.
Bill: And so, therefore, its the error of judgment that you know all about this person, and this one thing you like is all they are. Thats an error.
Bob D: This persons completely good because I saw this good act that they did, so its kind of recognizing behavior verses personality.
Virginia: This reminds me of Nancy when she was six years old. She had been sent on an errant to tell these boys it was time to go home to their parents, and they said Shes the ministers daughter. She wont lie. Nancy came home furious, because she said, Nobodys perfect. She was so annoyed that she had been judged good and perfect instead of who she is. [Laughter and comments.]
Nancy: I wanted to be seen for who I was, and that was what was offensive.
Bob D: The feeling when someone says youre absolutely wonderful when you recognize youre such a combination of things.
Nancy: I wasnt that they said I was wonderful based upon
I just felt like an object.
Bob D: It seem like sometimes youll see people doing things, and I makes me just as uncomfortable, when they come up and label me as such a wonderful person altogether, as it does for somebody to judge me as a person. Its the same sort of uneasiness.
Nancy: Yes, I get uneasy because I know, that given time, that perspective is going to crash. [Laughter.] Im going to feel pain and loss. I dont want to tumble from that pedestal. Ive done so much of my life trying to stay on top of other peoples pedestals. Thats very exhausting. I gave it up.
Bob D: It crossed my mind when my wife found out I read a book called the Urantia Book, and she said O thats where you get all those ideas. [Laughter.] I suddenly saw myself in reality. [Laughter.] I was telling her all these wonderful concepts. It took me a month and a half before
Virginia: This reminds me of Mother Theresa words when she said If we were humble, neither praise nor criticism would effect us. I translated it to, if we were perfect, neither praise nor criticism would effect us. Thats an incredible statement to me.
Nancy: I think when you are humble the ego is properly aligned.
Bill: Daniel is saying he believes weve tied up this concept very well. [Laughter and comments.]
Nancy: I was saying when you are truly humble the ego is properly aligned between the personality and the Indwelling Spirit, the personality is in charge rather than the ego.
Ken: They call that a spiritual ego. The balance must be maintained between the mortal and the spiritual.
Bob D: Ive often wondered, in contrast to that thought, it seem that we are creatures craving some sort of attention or approval, thats the word, and it seem that there is this balance in a society, like if no one ever acknowledges youre doing a good job, some quit even trying. So it seems that in this transitional state, until we get to light and life, theres a need to acknowledge others. A thought that hit me was this idea that seeing both praise and criticism for what it is, rather than the necessity of having to have it, because criticism can be good. Sometimes criticism helps to balance out a thought you have, but a lot of times its just judgment applied, but praise on the other hand can be good because it tells you youre on the right path, doing something right, if you dont let it go to your head. Its how you see those. In light and life, praise and criticism will be just
Nancy: Praise and criticism will be both praise. [Laughter.]
Bill: Actually theres a fine distinction between praise and encouragement in some systems of thought, praise coming from an external authority, and what you want to give people is encouragement because you point out what progress theyve made, and that surely is what out teachers do with us. They do the praise stuff too. They say Youre doing great, but it means more when we accept that we have made progress.
Virginia: Its not where we are. Its how far weve come.
Bill: Daniel wants to know how your enjoyed this tonight?
Ken: It was all right. [Laughter and affirmative comments.] It was Good.
Bob D: It makes it a little harder to feel comfortable to slip into TRing. I think it will take awhile to feel the balance, to say this is a teacher. Its easier to say Ive got this thought coming, [laughter] because I dont know for sure whether its something Im thinking or its something the teachers got, but thats probably true. The insight will either stand for itself or not, but it seems like theres a benefit to the discussion.
Minearsia (Bill) I am Minearsia. I want to respond to your last statement, Bob. You see, my friends, you really dont know how connected you are to spirit influence, and many of the thoughts coming to your minds are coming from higher levels, rather than your animal nature. Surely, you can tell that. So, youre exactly correct. At the same time though, we did want to encourage a back and forth-ness, such as Isaac has been doing. You all can do it, those of you who are proficient TRs, and we will continue this process in the future, maybe not in an identical fashion as we did tonight, but more interactional, as we have been saying. I now wish you to conclude in your usual formatholding hands and standing. Klarixiska is wishing to offer the last prayer through whatever TR is willing.
Klarixiska (Virginia): This is Klarixiska. Father, Mother, Spirit, Son Source: we thank you that the thoughts that were generated tonight by both the human minds and the teacher minds are those that will produce growth, and these, our friends, our charges, our loved ones, bring to their minds, as they relate to others on this planet, what they can do to bring that other person peace, love, joy, happiness. Encourage them on their walk that they might be able to encourage others. So be it.
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