[tmtranscripts] Pocatello Transcript 2-11-00

Bill Kelly billk at ida.net
Thu Feb 17 20:58:39 PST 2000


Aaron(Bill): Hello, friends, this is Aaron.  Your conversations this
evening, as they often are, were fascinating to us.  We appreciate the
feedback regarding statements that, while not intended, can cause feelings
of inferiority, immaturity, and the kinds of perceptions that the younger
children in a family can experience in the presence of their older
siblings.  So, yes, we do wish to let you know that we appreciate this

The Urantia Book was not dictated by God, but by the Revelatory Commission,
as you know, comprised of numerous individuals of different orders of
divinity status, from the highest levels to more intermediate levels.
Again, it was never the intention to cause defensive reactions in the
readers.  But it is true that beings of orders other than mortal ascenders,
having not experienced mortal existence can, by conveying their thoughts
without the wealth of knowledge gained from experiencing the mortal estate,
appear to be condescending.  We teachers are, as you know, your brothers
and sisters in ascension and our efforts have always intended to point out
your origin status in order to reframe it in the larger perspective of the
benefits and the usefulness of our experience; as well as the incredible
love and wisdom of the Gods who take the lowest creatures, we mortals, and
bring us to the heights of glory.

We speculate that this enormous experiential process has ramifications
beyond our understanding in the next universe age; but we do not really
know. However, it is the universal belief of Salvington and Uversa that the
purpose of all this training will be not only to assist those below us but
perhaps to assist creatures who will be of absonite status rather than
finite status.  In order to fill in the finite experience for these
absoniters it would require those who are experts in finitude, and that is
you and I, my friends.  So this is our speculation.

I wish to talk about the difference between error and sin for a moment as
it relates to the issue of guilt.  Remember that error is inevitable; it is
not avoidable in the universes of time and space.  It is essential to the
process of growth, for the only kind of reality in which error does not
occur is in the Central Universe of Havona where perfection was created by
fiat status from eternity.  But in these universes of evolution, Supremecy
is another means of attaining perfection that involves you and me in the
process of our own creation.  In their generosity the Paradise Deities are
sharing their creative powers in this new process of evolutionary growth to
perfected status attainment.  

Therefore, error cannot be avoided nor should it be despised, for it is, in
fact, the inevitable counterpart to truth where truth is incomplete and
evolving.  We have the amazing privilege of learning through experience and
the only way to gain experience is to take the risk of error.  Now, if this
is the ordained status of your lives as evolutionary creatures, it is not
rational, logical, and certainly not necessary to feel guilty about
mistakes!  Guilt is only appropriate when there is a clear choice between
what is known to be wrong and what is known to be right, and a person makes
the choice to do the wrong thing.  This, which we term sin, does produce
guilt for there is knowledge ahead of time and this cannot regarded as
simply a mistake.

Of course, this is a grey area for the knowledge of right and wrong is not
that clear to you in the mortal life.  You simply have not had enough
experience to always know what is the best rather than just the better
thing.  But sin is not even the error of choosing the lessor rather than
the greater.  Sin is choosing error, of deliberately choosing not to abide
by God's truth and thereby refusing to cooperate with the purpose of the
universe as it is expressed in its manifold, myriad ways.  

The Paradise Creator Sons come to save sinners.  They come to save those
who have made sinful choices for there is no sin which cannot be forgiven
except the refusal to accept forgiveness.  Refusing forgiveness is not
forgivable because the person who is resisting makes it impossible for that
forgiveness to be effective.  Always is our eternal destiny completely in
our hands.  On this topic there is no variation.  God desires free will
choice on the part of his creatures to participate in this great universe
ascension adventure.  No one is ever forced by the Deities of Paradise or
any of their subordinates to make a choice contrary to what they really
want to do.  Therefor, it is not necessary, wise, helpful, etc., to harbor
guilt feelings over things you perceive as possibly mistakes or confusion.
As long as one's heart is directed towards God and desires to do his will,
there should be no regrets over errors.

Because of the Lucifer Rebellion and the lack of role models from the
Material Sons and Daughters your cultures have erected cathedrals of guilt
where worshipers come every hour of the day to make their sacrificial
offerings.  It is in many ways a most monstrous spectacle to see the
peoples of this planet prostrate themselves  before the idol of guilt,
thinking that feeling badly for a long enough time will expiate their errors. 

People feel guilty about all sorts of errors and mistakes, imperfections
and countless other situations and things which absolutely merit no such
response!  You have been trained this way from childhood.  Guilt is not a
normal emotion of an infant.  It is taught. by shame, by criticism, by
punishment.  It is not God's will that people should feel guilty!  I will
say this emphatically.  It is not God's will.  

For those who have sinned, forgiveness is offered, not after they repent,
but in order that they may repent Forgiveness breaks the rigidity of their
attitudes.  It overwhelms them with unconditional love, that they can be
loved by their Creator despite their bad choices.  Of course, the prime
directive of free will requires that a sinner must receive forgiveness to
experience it, and so there are those whose pride stops them from letting
this always present, ever enveloping, forgiveness of God enter the citadels
of their mind.  

When Jesus said to his apostles that he did not wish for them to entertain
even the slightest sense of guilt, these were the reasons.  On worlds
advanced in Light and Life these truths are well understood.  On worlds
that are not rebellion planets these truths are more easily taught.  My
friends, we are a living laboratory in this Teaching Mission.  After
helping you to make contact with your divine Indweller it is our secondary
purpose that you become freed from the shackles of all guilt and fully in
touch with your worth as daughters and sons of the living God and
personalities in the universe of glorious personality existence.  

[Yes, Isaac was concerned that someone would talk about this. I will say,
Isaac, that I did a better job of expressing it than you could
have(laughter); and I say that not to shame you or minimize your intellect.
I appreciate your willingness to speak these words which needed to be said
for the record.]

Now, my friends, I am willing to open this up for your interaction at this
time.  Daniel is present.  Minearisa is here; as usual your teachers are
all here.  I would say, "What would you like to discuss or do you have
questions?  Or do you wish to make statements or comments?"  The floor is

Ken: Question.  

Aaron: Yes, Ken.

Ken: Reading about our Morontia Companions and the companions on Paradise,
when one transverses from  this superuniverse into the receiving halls of
Paradise, the statement was made that when they are received there, they
may be alone, without their companion or without their mate.  I don't
understand how someone can go there alone, can be received alone.

Aaron: The Compliment of Rest goes with the Havona graduate during this
great rest of time and eternity.  But those who do not have their mortal
companions or their Seraphic Guardian with them, which often is the case,
are never permitted to be alone for any period of time, but are greeted by
Paradise Companions after  they awake.  I am perhaps not understanding....

Ken: I understand that they will receive a Paradise Companion if they are
alone and that there is a restful period in the transition from here to
there.  I don't understand why they would be alone at that point, even
though they are sleeping, but I mean when they go into the sleep in this
transition stage, that they would be alone, that their Guardian wouldn't be
with them, or somebody.

Aaron: Well, the Compliment of Rest is with them, one of the Secondary
Supernaphim orders who are resident on the world from which they depart
Havona to cross to the Central Isle.  

Ken: Okay.

Aaron: If you are asking why people are without other kinds of companions,
the answer to that is manifold reasons.  I, of course, have not gone
through this experience, so I don't have a lot of personal information.

Ken: Okay.

Virginia: Aaron, you said something that I didn't quite understand.
Whenever we are asleep in a transition from one experience to another the
Supernaphim are with us as we sleep?

Aaron: No, I didn't say that.  

Virginia: That's what I wasn't clear about.

Aaron: Only from Havona to Paradise.  Many times we will journey from
Havona to Paradise as visitors before we gain residential status.  When we
are ready to actually graduate from the Havona worlds, to leave time and
enter timeless eternal Paradise, during that transition, the Compliment of
Rest will accompany us.  When we are transferred from the mortal state to
the Morontia state our soul is in the custody of our Guardian angels and
our mindal spirit counterpart is in the custody of our Thought Adjuster,
while our personality, we think, is in residence with the Archangels. 

The fact is that we are never truly alone, ever, even though many people
think they are.  They are not aware of their Guardian angels, personal or
group.  They are unaware of their indwelling Adjuster.  They are unaware of
Michael's Spirit of Truth.  They are unaware of many other unseen beings.
The only time that a person is truly alone is when they have refused to be
associated with God and his agencies.  Such a choice results in their

Ken, I would ask you if your question was for any other purpose than the
apparent information you were seeking?

Ken: The word, "alone", is used in the Urantia Book and it confused me for
a moment.  I will think on this till I fully understand it.  Yes, you did
answer my question.

I have another question.  

Aaron: Yes.

Ken: The seraphic transports that we have when we leave this life to our
receiving worlds, is it similar to the transports between Havona and
Paradise?  Are we put into that state....is this a curiosity question  I
shouldn't be into right now?

Aaron: Seraphic transports are not used to carry the mortal soul from this
planet to the mansion worlds. That is done by the guardian seraphim.
Seraphic transports are used throughout the universe to move a being from
one achievement level to another, except, of course, material beings which
are not capable of being enseraphimed.  The understanding that I have is
not complete, but the transport from Havona to Paradise is more luxurious.
The Supernaphim of Paradise, are the highest order of angels.  The
Transport Supernaphim are the highest order of transport angels.  

I would say, however, that I am more interested in answering questions that
are a little closer to home and your experience now as mortals.

Ken: Thank you.

Aaron: Yes.

Virginia: I want to know how the Guardian angels could possibly carry the
soul! (Laughter) The Guardian angels do not carry the soul, do they?

Aaron: Not in the same manner as enseraphimed, no.  I am not a Seraphim
myself and I cannot tell you how that occurs.  Remember that we teachers
are only ascendent mortal beings and we are only certain of those things
which we have experienced, and I was asleep!   So, I guess the answer is,
my dear, if you desire someday to ask your Guardian Seraphim how she
accomplished such a feat, when you are on the morontia worlds you should
feel free to do that.  I do not mean to appear smug in my reply.  Are there
any other concerns?

[Ed. Note: In the UB, Seraphic transports are described as carrying one
being, either of morontial or spirit status, on top of the transport angel.
Souls are only a part of a being. This may be why Aaron denied that
Seraphic transports are used in carrying souls and that souls are not
enseraphimed. But this may just be a technical term, " Seraphic
transports," if souls are carried 500 at a time in some kind of transport
facility, as some people believe.] 

Gwen: I have a down to earth question.

Aaron: Thank you.

Gwen: I was wondering if the teachers had any guidance in helping me to
deal with the death of my Oma when I wasn't able to be there and didn't
find out about it until four months afterwards?

Aaron: Yes, I heard your entire conversation about this along with your
friends.  One of the techniques that is used by your therapists who deal
with closure issues regarding loved ones who have died is to suggest that
you write a letter and put all your thoughts and feelings in your own hand,
or type it on a computer, if you wish.  The attempt to express this and the
effort it will take to put it into writing will be a tremendous catharsis.
I think this is one possibility.  

I hope you will review my words about the difference between sin and error
and the inappropriateness of guilt feelings, which you have been trained to
have more than your share of, like every other mortal on this planet.

I also support Isaac's recommendation that you discipline yourself to take
10 minutes a day in stillness of some kind.  How you structure that and
what you do is for you to decide. Make it a time when you can direct your
thinking away from your everyday thoughts, toward God within you; when you
can listen for guidance, however that would work for you.  I recommend this
because this is our standard recommendation, i.e. all of us in mortal life,
as well as beyond, need to take time for worship, prayer and stillness.
But also because a life that is disciplined involves choices that are made
with purposeful forethought as compared to the kind of living that some
people do which is more or less motivated by the whims of emotion, the
"feel good or feel like" kind of living.  

All of you need to practice discipline to make progress: discipline with
your eating habits, with your exercise habits, with your sleep habits, with
your study habits, with your work habits,  with your play habits and with
your spiritual growth.  All of these things benefit from planning, setting
aside and prioritizing, because in the choosing that is required in such
planning, you make spiritual progress.  

I think that your idea of obtaining the facts regarding your grandmothers
demise will ease your confused feelings about this and I would strongly
urge you not to retain guilt over it or beat yourself up, as you say. What
is past is past.  However, as you know, unless your grandmother were to
choose extinction, there is a virtual infinity of time in which to repair
and correct what was not completed satisfactorily in this mortal life.
Does that help you, my dear?

Gwen: Yes, thank you.

Aaron: Do you wish to interact further about this?

Gwen: No, I have plenty to go with from what you said.  Thank you.

Aaron: And Gwen......we all love you and think you are doing very well!  Be
patient with yourself.  Depression is a long term thing and you will not
only see the light at the end of the tunnel, you will emerge into the
bright sunshine of resplendent joy.  (Aaron sighs) It is hard to walk when
it seems so dark; and yet you struggled from that pit of darkness to your
present level.  You do very well, my friend.  Just keep on keeping on.

Gwen: Thank you.

Ken: Aaron.

Aaron: Yes.

Ken: I find myself wanting to apologize for my curiosity question.  Being
at this nut and bolt stage in my existence I was curious as to the type of
physical or whatever system used in that, and having a little insight into
the transport system from here to the first mansion world so I will
apologize for that and will try to keep my questions at the earthly level
of my existence.  Thank you for your patience with me this evening.

Aaron: You don't need to apologize.  

Group member: He's feeling guilty! (Loud laughter)

Aaron: I observed that.  (More laughter)

Ken: I am also apologizing to my teacher, Larenzo.

Aaron: When we discourage curiosity questions it is because they can
replace the more urgent agenda we have with you which is your spiritual
growth, not because such things are never discussed or speculated on by the
rest of us on the other side of mortal death.  In fact, we are great at
speculation and we are very curious.  Please do not feel guilty about
offering these questions.  I only closed off that train of thought so we
would have time to get at the more spiritually important questions.

Ken: That I understand.

Aaron: Yes.  Please do not feel that you need to apologize.  We are the
teachers and, yes, we set the agenda.  We are not quite at the point where
we want to relinquish the sharing of our knowledge with you.  There will
come a time, many times, in the rests that you will experience, the
reversions, etc., in the morontial life and beyond where there will be
unimagined "fun", if I may use that word, beyond your wildest dreams.  As
you know from the book, those of you who have special interests may pursue
these.  There are many diversions in the route that leads to the same
place.  Some become celestial astronomers, some become musicians, some
become choreographers, some pursue oratory, some .....we don't make guns!
But Buck will have other (words lost due to laughter)...!

Virginia: I would like to ask a question which is not a curiosity question
because I think it would bring a lot of peace.   I know that teachers have
spoken twice about concerned loved ones of mine and I am just wondering if
you are knowledgeable about whether or not Oma made a permanent decision
for God, whether or not she is on the mansion worlds right now.

Aaron: (Pause)  Oma is asleep.  She is a sleeping survivor.  She will be
awakened when the next dispensational resurrection occurs and resume her
ascension career.  This is my information that was given to me by others.  

(loud click from the tape recorder)  Well, my friends, the tape has shut
down in protest to the comments..........

Ken: It's because I didn't pay attention [ Ken is the recording engineer]

Voice: He's feeling guilty. (More outrageous laughter) We do it so well!

Aaron: I am trying to make humor. 

Voice: (loudly) We live with guilt!!

Aaron:...........(giving up his attemt at humor) so therefore, I believe,
unless there are other pressing concerns, we will conclude for this evening.  

Think about what I said about guilt.  I realize that just hearing my words
will not erase that from your minds.  You must work on yourselves.  You
must permit the loving truth of the all loving God, who loves sinner and
saint both without reservation, to permeate your hearts.  Be of good cheer,
my friends.  This is a wonderful universe that we live in and it only gets
better!  Good evening.

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